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Buggy Alumni Association • Second Day Swapping
Page 1 of 2

Second Day Swapping

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:17 pm
by TommyK
It seems the outcome of the rank-DQ discussion was that if team pusher swapping is blatant enough and can be proven (somehow), the specific rule is unnecessary since it should be treated as unsportmanslike conduct ...

How does everyone feel about the wholesale swapping of a B-team for an A-team roster after a day one spin ... absent of injuries to everyone swapped? Should this fall under the unsportsmanlike conduct rule?

In my opinion doing this is akin to what Pika asked for this year with the SN hatch loss of mass/line deviation re-roll... to get a second chance after a vehicle performance failure by abusing a loophole.

Re: Second Day Swapping

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:42 pm
by lemuroid
I do not mind the swap if as a result only one buggy contends. This is the advantage of having a fast b team that can make 2nd day. I used this rule in 87 to load my a team ( spin) into the b team slot.

This is different from swapping entire teams and running 2 entries to avoid a tight race in the finals or mess with someone else. That is anti-sporting. Given how ofter the finals heats do not go down per the 1vs 6 pattern this is somewhat moot.

In the case of the pka reroll, I would have asked for a re-roll as well and looked for any excuse. Had their lack of performance been as a result of the loss of mass from the zoo, they should have been granted one. I like the way sweepstakes handled it. Get the roll in now, let us see if it counts later. Their goose had already been cooked in the freeroll and thus, the right call was made.

Putting on my ESP hat, I also like that it caused them to eat up yet another set of tires and left them with a 2:14.XX time ( unimpressive for them) that did not count.

Re: Second Day Swapping

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:44 pm
by shafeeq
On the one hand, your new B team is going to be going faster than its qualifying time, which is going to mess with the finals seeding. On the other hand if your only, and thus fastest, team in the finals is your B team, you're already violating the rule that your A team has to be faster.

If you're doing it to set the best time you can, and the substitutions are legal, then I don't see what's wrong with it. Doing it to slow down a competitor would be unsportsmanlike.

Re: Second Day Swapping

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:27 pm
by TommyK
So you see the rules as allowing B-team as an insurance policy for getting your A-team qualified for second day? That's what sits wrong with me, it eliminates the integrity of the B-team identity (if that exists). Since day 2 heat selection is more fluid these days should roster substitutions and expected times be mandatory information for sweepstakes to make its appropriate heat selections?

What about in the new era of buggy where SDC and Fringe put up 11 of the 16 second day teams including 3 teams each in the men's and 3/2 in the women's? Say SDC A was disqualified for one of the possible racing infractions (pushbar, interference, loss of mass) and they cycled pusher's in. Their B and C teams would (theoretically) improve on their potential times by 3 seconds each. Is that significant enough of a difference to unfairly affect the teams they are in a heat against?

Re: Second Day Swapping

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:04 pm
by the cook
I've always personally hated the 4 out of 5 swap, even though I've also used it. It tends to keep the teams on top on top, and reduces the chances of a "fluke" win if A teams spin on the first day.

I think there were at least 2 victories achieved this way in the last 20 years - were both PiKA? 2004 was one to be sure.

Had Spirit not been granted a re-roll when they locked their A team up with the Zoo, they would have done this instead and probably still won.

Swapping 1 man max sounds a lot better to me.

Re: Second Day Swapping

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:20 pm
by lemuroid

Re: Second Day Swapping

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:01 pm
by revo

Re: Second Day Swapping

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:44 pm
by FSMike
In 92 (I believe) we had both front hills blow out-one was a knee and the other was something else. We moved the C1 and C2 up to A team.

They rolled, then had a reroll shortly after, and still won. I believe this was the order.

I also can categorically say that Spirit would not have swapped teams: in '96 Spirit spun on A. B team rolled as is, and took second. in '95 we could have scratched our A1 for our faster C1 (who inexplicably decided to finally push, rather than just matching the A up the hill). That bit was the margin that cost us the victory and we knew it was a possibility when we started.

I don't call it unsportsmanlike for the other teams, but it seems unsportsmanlike for the B team. I'd be pissed if I lost my spot because A couldn't get through the chute. I do think it skews the seedings, so unless a valid reason could be given I do think that a limit of 3 would be sufficient (and more could be allowed with Sweepstakes discretion).

Re: Second Day Swapping

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:14 pm
by abordick
SDC swapped out their A and B when they missed that pushbar.

Re: Second Day Swapping

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:22 pm
by McCue